Posts
Who needs guns? The answer to this seemingly rhetorical question is cops, soldiers, hunters, outback campers, farmers, ranchers, target-shooters, collectors and the guy who gets the 100-yard dash underway. That’s it as far as I can see.
You don’t need a lethal weapon, concealed or not, to “protect yourself”. Protect yourself from what? How often do you hear about a guy who saved himself from a mugger because he had a gun? Do you shoot someone who is wearing brass knuckles and a mask, or do you reach for the stun-gun, mace or baton. Surely you carry these non-lethal weapons in your other pocket, under your belt, strapped to your ankle, or tied to you back. I wonder how many carry lethal weapons AND non-lethal weapons, "Fergit the mace...aaam goin' straight fer the lead!"
Do you think you have the skills to quell the chaos at Trolley Square just because you have a concealed carry permit?
The idea one needs a concealed weapons permit to protect oneself seems ludicrous. To me it’s not about protection. It’s about wearing a muscle suit so people will be so afraid of you they dare not mess.
I see most permit carriers as self-proclaimed law enforcement officials. It can be a frightful dilemma.
Law enforcement training and hostage negotiation does not go into the “training” required to obtain a concealed carry permit. Once permitted, when do you draw your gun? When you see a fight? When someone insults you with profanity? If you see someone climbing through a window?
If someone draws a gun on you, do you really have the guts to engage in the showdown? Will you duck behind a solid object and return strategic fire?
Look, you are more likely to see a fire when you walk down the street than to have a reason to pull out a gun and defend yourself. Drop the guns and carry fire extinguishers if you are all about the greater good. Otherwise admit it. You want your gun so you can feel like Rambo even though you look like Richard Simmons before or after the weight loss gig.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
31 comments:
Bluto are you arguing that the carry permit is just very under trained or are you arguing that we should not carry at all. If it is that people are not trained enough then you are dead on but are police and sheriffs also lack very much so in training look at the insident in ogden with the sheriff teaching the class and shoting himself lack of training is very much the problem at why you do not see concealed carriers doing more good also it is because it takes alot more then people care to admit to take the life of another most people freaze up
but all that said that does not mean that we do not carry it means we need to train more
"...are you arguing that we should not carry at all..."
Not at all PK. In fact I list, "...cops, soldiers, hunters, outback campers, farmers, ranchers, target-shooters, collectors and the guy who gets the 100-yard dash underway..." as people who NEED guns. I'm sure I left out a few.
I'm saying that carrying a concealed weapon is probably more likely to get you killed or imprisoned than to save your life.
carrying conceled your right is probley going to get most people in trouble trolley square is a perfect example of that if it would have been anyone other then an of duty officer in that building the caouse and shit levels would have gone up emensly
i think that is still a lack of training isue more then a dont carry at all issue though
carrying conceled probley is not a good idea unless the person is going to personaly see to there training
but i think haveing a weapon in your house should be the case trained or not the best advice i ever heard is a sod off shot gun magazine feed with a variation scater slug line up no matter how untrained you are the person breaking into your house is dead
wich i think is becoming more and more a need unfortanitly
Ya PK,
I agree, home invasion is another story all together. Of course alarm systems and good locks help that situation, too. I still don't have guns in the house. I might when my kids grow.
This is beautiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV3lcquHI6c
The thieves were illegal immigrants from Columbia or Venezuela, or somewhere, and both stumbled about 50 yards and died.
Thoughts?
Jeez,
Was he really cleared of all charges?
If a cop shoots a fleeing illegal occupier he loses his job and maybe even goes to jail, but this foo who thinks "September 1st" somehow changed things can kill anyone with dark skin carrying a duffel bag?
Yep. He was completely cleared of all charges.
It should be noted this happened in Houston. That's in Texas, for all of you educated through the U.S. public school system. The laws in Texas allow for you to shoot someone when they are fleeing the scene of a robbery, whether it is your property or not.
He was:
A) not in any physical danger
B) not the focus of the robbery
C) not on his property when the shooting occurred
I can guarantee you one thing, however. Robberies will be down in Texas.
Tobold, my fellow fan of Tolkien's trilogy,
"I can guarantee you one thing, however. Robberies will be down in Texas."
And I can guarantee that those who house sit are in greater danger than they were before this incident!
There is a moral to this story. OK. Maybe a lesson or two.
1) if you're stealing jewelry, cash and panties in Texas — have a bloody lookout.
2) if you're stealing golf clubs, bathroom fixtures and contraceptive sponges in Houston — you better be packing heat, Jose.
I got to say i loved listening to that
two thoughts of councern that call was more then 5 minutes long my good hell how long does it take to respond to a call out
next why the hell does the guy keep saying no property is worth shoting someone over what the hell is that
I love guns and have several. I do take one when camping, and have packed once or twice to visit my friend in the Ghetto years ago.
But do I want some asshole who is grocery shopping near me while packing a gun? Hell no!
Does taking a two day course give the public the skill and experience required to safely carry a loaded gun in public? Again... Hell no!
Guns in the house? I've trained my three kids how to shoot from age of 6. All three can safely be around a loaded gun. All three are in the habit of checking to make sure a gun is loaded when I used to shoot with them. They are pretty much grown now.
I think that you should either train your kids how to use firearms or don't have guns at all.
It's the folks who hide their guns thinking that their children that won't find them are the ones that have accidents.
Saying all this. Now that I live in Logan, I feel so safe that a loaded gun for protection doesn't seem necessary.
I can agree on most points. I agree that you should definately teach your kids to operate the firearms you have in the house, BUT, with a 6-year-old I think I'd keep those guns well out of reach no matter how proficient they become at operating them.
I can understand that Bluto. When they were that young I kept them locked away. Once they were 10 or so, I wasn't too worried unless they brought a friend over. I had locked gun safes to keep them in.
But, where I lived, at night, I would have a loaded pump shotgun near my bed just in case, without a round in the chamber.
It was safe since the kids saw what a shotgun could do to a melon, and they were trained not to play with guns. They couldn't rack the slide to chamber a round if they wanted to. During the day, or if they had friends spend the night, it was unloaded and locked up.
I'm saying that carrying a concealed weapon is probably more likely to get you killed or imprisoned than to save your life.
A true statement.
What other countries allow average morons on the street like myself pack a loaded gun?
And what does this have to say with the fear and lack of congeniality that we should have for one another?
If I ever get so paranoid to where I feel a need to strap on a gun in public, I'll just have to move to a safer place.
I don't feel that Utah is that dangerous at this present time.
I agree with you Sheesh. Some at the HJ site do not want to really give it much thought. My old man was held up at gun point a couple months ago. He is adamant that having a gun would not have helped him in the slightest. What was he going to do? Shoot the guy on his way out of the store? By the time my dad knew the guy had a gun it was pressed against his gut. If he had a gun in his pocket he'd have been a fool to pull it out and take his chances in a quick draw duel. As it turned out, he gave the guy the $103 in his wallet (no cards, the guy didn't want cards) and the guy was arrested a couple weeks later and is now in jail. He'll likely spend at least most of the rest of his life in jail as the robber is 65. He's also a former cop!
Obviously there will arise situations where a gun would be helpful or save your life, but I still think that truth is offset by the dangerous situations that arise where your gun simply gets you killed.
Robbers don't rob your house when you're home.
They don't want to die. They don't want to be caught. They just want your Dido CD collection.
Today's thief doesn't come through the front door and engage you in a gun battle. Today's thief takes your kid's social security number and buys the Unabridged Dido Encyclopedia with a Discover card on eBay.
The U.S. Department of Justice reports burglary rates are down more than 300 percent since 1972. Violent crime rates are at the lowest level in American history.
So, Sheesh, are you expecting a sporting clays contest to break out in your living room at 3:15 a.m.? Are you watching too many Spaghetti Westerns before bed? Or is your bedside shotgun there to supplement your manhood?
Very funny Hornblower.
Actually I don't sleep near a loaded shotgun here in Logan. I used to live in a more dangerous place, and even had to use the gun to chase miscreants out of my yard a couple times.
Spaghetti Westerns? Heheheh
I have to agree to disagree with you on this one. America is great for that.
I agree with Bluto on this one. I'm not against people having weapons, but I don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying a concealed weapon. I truly question the sanity of people who feel they need to carry a concealed weapon.
I'm an avid shooter and member of the Maryland State Rifle Team. I shoot regularly at Ft. Meade, MD. I've seen my share of handgun marksman. Most are truly scarey. Law enforcement officers must qualify routinely and shoot regularly at an approved range. Why? To keep their skills sharp. How often does the average Joe with a concealed carry permit go to the range to keep their shooting skills sharp? Especially, in a realistic shooting scenario?
I worked in a very high crime area of Washington, DC for years. Even in that evironment, I never came across a situation where I would have intervened had I been packin' heat. How many people with carry permits will truly ever be involved in a Trolley Square incident? The chances of this happening are about "ZERO!"
I own numerous weapons. Two pistols. One is extremely high powered, a .22 semi which is still lethal and another high powered revolver. But these are just plinkers compared to my rifles and shotguns. If I feel my life is truly threatened and I need a weapon, I'm going to get out my M1-A which is a semi-auto version of an M-14 assualt rifle with a 20 round clip. Why would I use a pistol/revolver when I can use my M1-A or when I can use an assault shotgun loaded with 3" 00Buckshot? If I'm really serious and into some long distance lethality, I can pull out my Savage 12/FTR .308 30 inch heavy barrel with a Leupold 6X50 mil dot scope. I shoot F-Class on the MD State Rifle Team with this weapon. I can place a six shot grouping within a silver dollar at 900 yards.
There's a reason our military and SWAT teams utilize high powered assault rifles and shotguns. It's the same theory that you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
I don't feel safe with people packing concealed heat. I feel like we've taken a step back into the old west. The chances of innocent people getting hurt have increased in my opinion, not decreased.
If this madness is not abated, we will soon see our law enforcement officers routinely carrying military assault rifles. Most handgun ammo will not penetrate a bullet resistant vest. But a high powered assault rifle will penetrate these vests like a red hot knife through butter.
If you want to pack heat, why not just strap it on for everyone to see? The police for the most part do.
I believe if you have the right to carry concealed weapons then I as a citizen have the right to know you're packin' heat. That way I'll know to keep the hell away from you.
P.S.
I don't have kids at home but I still keep my weapons and ammo locked up in a quality gun safe. A burglar would have to have a bull dozer to rip this safe out. Then a damn good blow torch to open it.
Wow Fric Mon...
Nice arsenal. I'm glad your recognize that I'm not against guns per se. It's the untrained carrier who thinks he's Charles Bronson I have an issue with.
Hey thanks for poppin' in "It's Time to Live"! I believe we've worked together. You worked at the Logan Zoo no? I used to show up with camera in hand and shoot some things for the Valley Channel!
Sorry Bluto, but you have me mixed up with someone else. I've never been to the Logan zoo. I was born, raised and educated in CV. But I left in 1975 and only return usually once a year to visit relatives. I'm waiting for my wife to retire from her workplace. When she does, we might consider retiring to CV.
You might know my brother. He's in the construction business. He works independently and does customized work, notably upscale media rooms and systems. He's very good with custom cabinets, etc. He also drives a big Harley "HOG." He probably visits the Owl occasionally but he's not what I consider a real big beer drinker.
Actually, Fric Mon...
:)
I was talking to "Its' Time to Live". He used to be our zoo keeper! :)
I wonder if I've bumped in to your bro at the Owl or on job sites!
Bluto,
Sorry for my bad reading skills.
You very well might know my brother. His first name is Lynn.
Taking a life is a personal act. In fact, it tops the list of personal acts.
When you kill a man, you steal everything he has, everything he is going to have and everything he has ever done, will do or be.
As such, it is my opinion (though somewhat off topic) that you owe a man an honorable, personal, painful death. If you aren't covered in a man's blood or sputum, you cheated him.
If I am going to kill you, I am going to choke you with my own hands, stab you with a knife or slice a tee-shot into your temple.
Standing 10 feet away and pushing a lead slug into another man's torso is an incredibly impersonal and cowardly way to take a life.
Fore!
I'm seein' it there Hornus Tobithicus:
And a nice side-effect of your position is that you're not likely to accidentally choke or stab a man, a kid, or yourself to death. Well there are cases but those involve erotic perversions if you ask me.
The golf thing, well...careful man, that thing might go off at any time!
Can you imagine college students packing heat in the classroom? I'm sorry but this scares the hell out of me. I would never attend an university where students are allowed to pack heat. We've overreacted to in my opinion to what happened at Virginia Tech. I question if students packin' heat would have ultimately made any difference.
http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/07/31/07312008_guns_on_campus.html
I'm witchooo Fric Mon! Guns in these extreme cases where someone who expects to die during the event and is out to take as many people with him as possible will only complicate the matter. Drawing your weapon in such a situation certainly guarantees you will be targetted and the cross-hairs decorating your chest cavity or skull might be those of the authorities.
Most law enforcement officers carry a concealed weapon and many departments require them to carry their duty weapon or be qualified with the off-duty weapon they carry when they're off duty. Good case in point is Trolley Square. I'm glad this was a trained law officer who took out this perp instead of Joe hero packin' heat with little training. The thought of this scares the bejesus out of me.
In the DC Region, it seems like about every 10th person I meet is a law officer working for any one of the 50 (I'm guessing) law enforcement agencies protecting our Nation's Capital, politicians, ambassadors, etc. not to mention the state and local officers. Then add the military police and military intelligence folks who pack. Then you have many private firms who have contracted former officers, military special forces dudes, off-duty officers, etc. to protect CEOs, etc. In Maryland are licensed by the MD State Police to pack heat. They must qualify at the State Police ranges just like their officers every three months.
And with the new law GWB signed into law, retired police officers and military personnel are allowed to pack heat. They are required to be certified by the department they retired from and once again the law allows the state or locality to require these retired officers to qualify just like their active duty officers. MD & VA have been very cooperative with the law. DC refuses to let retired officers/military pack heat.
My point is there are plenty of people packin' heat out there without every Joe Smoe hero with a hair up his rear end wanting to pack heat.
There's nothing stopping Joe Smoe citizen from carrying a rifle or shotgun in his vehicle. In Maryland and VA the weapon cannot be loaded. If a true emergency arises, it only takes seconds to load a rifle or shotgun. Like I said before, I'll take the rifle or shotgun any day of the week to a gunfight if the bad guy has a handgun. There's a good reason our military personnel use high powered rifles rather than handguns. It's called accuracy and firepower. Even most law enforcement officers carry a shotgun and many a military assault rifle in their trunk.
I believe the chances of Joe Smoe in Cache Valley saving lives because he is packin' concealed heat are astronomical. The chances Joe will blow his own talleywacker or toes off are more likely than him becoming a hero. I also believe you should be in fairly good physical condition. I can visualize the 400 lb fat man who can’t keep his trousers up chasing a perp. He’s more likely to fall over dead from a heart attack or accidentally shoot an innocent person than do any good at a shooting scene. If fat man wants to keep an M-60 machine gun in his own home, that’s his business as long as he has a permit from the ATF.
We cannot become a police state or return to the old west. There's no way to stop a determined perp from most likely taking out his intended target(s). The infamous Beltway Snipers are a good case in point. If every citizen in the region had been packin' heat it would not have made any difference. If anything, they might have made themselves likely targets for these maniacs.
And I totally agree with you Bluto. The Joe packin' heat is more likely to be shot at the scene by the law than they are to actually make a difference. Officers have milliseconds to make decisions whether to shoot or not. I've heard many law officers state they rather have 8 on the jury decide their fate than 8 to carry their casket.
I believe strongly in the second amendment but there also needs to be some sane minds controlling that right in our communities.
DC has had an over restrictive law in my opinion for years. On the other hand, states handing out concealed weapon permits like candy have over reacted on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Year's ago when we lived in another community in Maryland a neighbor who lived about a block away was murdered and raped. She had been stabbed in the chest and her throat was slit. The police said they had no suspects or motive. Our neighborhood was extremely apprehensive and many were very fearful that the police did not have a suspect. The police patrols were increased in our neighborhood. The police actually had a suspect, but would not tell the neighbors anything because it would have compromised their investigation. What did I do? I just made sure our doors were always locked with double bolt locks and I kept our bedroom door locked at night. Our outside windows already had steel bars on them. I kept my M1-A with a 20 round clip next to my bedside, locked and loaded. If a perp would have broken into our home, he wouldn't have walked out on his own power. A couple of weeks passed and the police then arrested the husband and his brother. The husband paid his brother to kill his wife hoping he would cash in a large life insurance policy. The police had it figured out within a day or so but it took them several weeks to put the evidence together in order to make the arrest stick. The husband had a good alibi, but the semen was a near identical match to him. So that was a good clue to the police that the perp was a close relative. Both were ultimately convicted of 1st degree murder and have been sentenced to life in prison without any chance of parole. All the neighbors packin’ heat wouldn’t have made any difference in this case. It more likely would have led to one neighbor accidentally shooting due to sheer paranoia.
Obviously the above are my opinions.
I don't agree with the ideas that if you want to carry concealed then you're a nut. Some people are, that's true. However, I think a lot of people aren't
I currently don't have an active CC permit, but have in the past. I used to carry when I lived in Albuquerque. Little different down there than here in Cache Valley.
I do however, agree that if you have a gun you need training. Just because you own a piano doesn't mean you can play. The same goes for a gun. That is one reason why I own a lifetime membership to a firearms training school (Front Sight outside of Las Vegas). I am also an officer in the Utah Army National Guard, so this complements my service in the military.
Bluto, I think you should at least take the CC course so you know what is taught. You asked questions about when to shoot/draw, legal ramifications, escalation of force issues. These are situational issues that are covered in each course taught and covered in depth at any reputable shooting school.
I wonder which course teaches permit holders to fire warning shots into the air?
A peeping tom was recently apprehended in CV by such a card carrier. He basically chased the dude down after catching him red handed. He yelled at him and clicked one off INTO THE AIR!
Again I reassert that CC permits do a very poor job of preparing one to use a weapon in high stress situations.
Post a Comment