I can tell you that I pretty much believe it's been human nature since the dawn of man to ponder other-worldly existence especially as it pertains to the afterlife. Man is creative and it's no wonder he's come up with thousands of "spiritual" translations for what "God (or the gods)" expect us to do so that we do not spend eternity in "Hell" or simply disappear into nothingness.
It's at least a very difficult thing to face that this 70 or so years we get on Earth may really be all there is to our existence. An existence lacking eternal life can make dealing with death very troubling for the human psyche.
I find it hard to believe, though, that a Creator put us here with the intention of having us jump through a bunch of hoops that He is very slow and cryptic about clearly defining. The “hoops” range too dramatically across too many different doctrines. I believe I should "be good". I don’t need a cleric, preacher, pastor, shaman, priest or bishop to teach me what that is. My parents and other family or friend mentors did most of that for me and the rest can be left to intuition or instinct. I find it hard to believe a Creator who is interested in communicating with us directly would put translators or middlemen between He, me and you only so we can disagree about His word and spend all human history killing each other over it while waiting for new signs of impending doom from above.
Even though mankind has an apparent motive to "create a Creator", science leaves me convinced that everything began; that there was nothing, then there was something. There must have been an event we can call "the beginning of time".
I believe the Big Bang theory is an incomplete explanation for the origin of all things and that the infinite point of mass (singularity) must have come from somewhere. There had to be nothing, then something. Science is troubled by the first few fragments of a second after the initial “bang”. The laws of physics as we know them do not allow for the rapid expansion that must have occured immediately following the initial explosion. It seems to me the laws of physics and passing of time began shortly after the Big Bang. Anything before this part of the event can be left to our imaginations for pondering.
These are the proving grounds. This is where we separate the men from the boys, the women from the girls, the strong from the weak ..................... Surf this!!
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23 comments:
i think you are dead on with your thought proses my friend. And it is sad that there are not enough people to think on there own and that they do allow themselfs to kill each other baced on the teachings of another. But i also believe there is a God and Gods in control of the life we lead and that there is more to come and there was a hell of alot before
do you want to get into that part of the discusion or where you more looking at getting a point accross of how stupid sheep human kind has been and wasted there time here on the earth
The master Mind
Gen. Patton put it best
“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.”
Are you religous bluto and if so may i ask what faith?
PK,
I've been a member of 3 different faiths beginning with Luthern.
I go with pretty much an Agnostic view on the topic as I am sure there is a Creator and do believe a Higher Power answers prayer.
I cannot for a minute believe that any one or Earth's religions has all the truth and as you noticed, I am troubled by all the blood shed in the name of "faith". I cringe that to be president of the US you pretty much have to acknowledge some kind of Christian faith.
You can make any comment you want anytime bro! You know I will discuss absolutely anything from absolutely any angle...
I like to ponder the philisophical queery of whether God is Omnipresent, Omnicient and/or All Knowing.
How's the FTP show going lately? It might be a while before I get home from work in time to listen to it let alone participate.
Bluto, What do you mean by "I like to ponder the philisophical query of whether God is Omnipresent, Omnicient and/or All Knowing"? Do you believe God is all these things, or do you wonder to what extent God possesses all these attributes? Just wondering.
And how was Lake Tahoe?
c u lata!
Well CU,
It's interesting. If the Creator truly bestowed upon us "free agency" or "free will", how could he know what choices we'd make. I believe such a Creator could know all things that CAN happen, but would not know all things that WILL happen. Otherwise it seems everything that happens occurs out of destiny or design.
Omnipresent, well that one isn't really all that interesting to me. I suppose a Creator would have to be everywhere at all times in order to see or affect all that happens. Is he here all the time? Does he see EVERYTHING? Does he have some permanent way of recording all things so as to observe them in His own good time? Like I said, not all that interesting to me.
Omniscient-Well, I suppose a Creator who could create ALL things could be capable of doing absolutely anything regardless of the laws of physics He designed. But again, perhaps his design was to let the Universe flow as it may. Perhaps it's like these comments. Once they're in, you can't edit them. You have to put another one down to do damage control...Maybe he can do anything but chooses to leave us be.
The most interesting angle to me is whether or not a God who creates people to act freely would actually know the choices we will make before we make them.
Tahoe was awesome btw! Had a couple run ins with a bear, saw Alan Jackson perform, won a little cash at the sportsbook, rafted, golfed, cooked chicken wings and fished.
Most importantly, played with family for 7 days!
Interesting stuff
I do Believe that God is Omnicent and omnipresent as well to some exstent
the greatest thing he did give to us is are freeagencey though. I do think that God is set to his own laws thow that is the beauty of it God does not change his laws and has to operate inside of them. The problem is we do not have anywhere near the knowledge of those laws that he has but we do know that threw following his laws we are not only bound but god is also bound in so if we work under those same laws we can choose are destiny i think that is how omnicent comes to play he does know what is going to happen or where are chooses will lead us because he understands more fully the law that binds the consequenses of are actions
clear as mud
hope you understand what i am saying
got to say i am jelouse of the 7days in tahoe with fam my fam will finaly be back home in 2 more weeks
FTP is going great wish you could be there for the discusion we have had this week on abortion
semper fi
Tell them I said, "Choose Life!" I think you should have the right to choose and should almost always choose life. Abortion should never be used as a substitute birth control and accountability.
I want to know more about Lake Tahoe and the Bear...
Personally, I feel we existed befor birth. I believe we are here on this earth to gain a body, to learn, grow and some say be tested. I prefer to look at our earth experience as showing ourselves what we are capable of. I feel that God already understands us but we don't. I also believe in an after life.
Your wish is my command TTL...
See newest post...
I don't think that "the beginning of time" means that there was nothing before hand...I mean, yeah, if there wasn't time then how could there be anything BEFORE anything else,right, but a singularity is sort of the "pinch-off" point between this reality and whatever may have happened previously. Singularities are believed to occur in Black holes, and the known physical laws break down at that point, but something had to go INTO the singularity, and something will end up coming out of it as well. It just so happens that we don't have a way to see what there was before OUR spacetime began...but it doesn't follow that there was simply NOTHING before hand. If there was NOTHING, then you couldn't have a creator anyway...because the creator would be SOMETHING.
By the way...I think this relates a little bit. I'd be curious to your input. http://theicidalmaniac.wordpress.com/
Hey Josh,
I don't see a Creator as a three dimensional "something". God must certainly be something unexplainable with 3D thinking and the laws of physics. I will check that link later tonight.
Here's the problem.
A God can not be all-knowing and all-powerful and still judge us.
The Christian notion of this world being a "test" to determine our eternal placement in heaven or hell is based on this.
If this God person is all powerful and all knowing, he knows the following 1) he knows us perfectly 2) he knows every single situation we will face in life and 3) knows how we will respond to these situations.
Hence, when this God person puts us into this world, he knows Exactly how it will turn out.
You are the sum of your genetics and experiences and God is the mathematician.
It's like a pool table, and God has the cue. He starts the balls in motion, and (if he is all-knowing) knows Precisely where the balls will come to rest.
Ergo, for this Christian notion of a "test" to work, God either is not all-knowing or is not a just God.
Next subject, is God All-Good? If so, where does evil come from?
I find it hard to believe, though, that a Creator put us here with the intention of having us jump through a bunch of hoops that He is very slow and cryptic about clearly defining.
I put my kids through hoops all the time. I'm often slow & cryptic about clearly defining the hoops. It's not because I don't love my kids or because I don't exist; it's because I want them to work and think through things... not follow simple instructions. That's good at first... "Put the seat up." "Thou shalt not kill." But life's a lot more than a laundry list. So I try to teach spirits of laws rather than letters of laws. That results in some hoops that aren't very clearly defined... and I think it's a good parenting plan. I'm not omniscient, but it seems to work pretty well for me as a parent. And, it seems to work well for me as a child of a being that's quite a bit smarter than I am (since "omniscient" kinda unbalances any equation used to compare my knowledge with His).
I think that before anyone can accept deity they have to get past the "I am as smart as God" challenge... and most intellectual folk I've spoken with have some seriously staunch ego backing that belief. With that in place, I really don't know if there's anything beyond sharing information that can take place in discussions like this... though they're fun anyway!
The “hoops” range too dramatically across too many different doctrines.
And you attribute this to divinity? I'd attribute it to mankind... but even more than that, to an adversary. The things that I've seen wrong with religion weren't put there by God. They were put there by man, and quite frequently it seems likely that Satan had a hand.
If I haven't discounted myself by disclosing an intellectually-damning belief in Satan, I'll continue. ;)
I believe I should "be good". I don’t need a cleric, preacher, pastor, shaman, priest or bishop to teach me what that is.
I concur.
I also believe I should be "righteous". I don't need a bishop, teacher, or parent to teach me this... but it sure does help when they do. :) My kids could've probably stumbled along pretty well on their own, too, but I firmly believe that my guidance was amazingly useful in their moral development. I believe that my mother's guidance was just as useful in my own development of morality. And I see powerful evidence that the bulk of all the righteousness I've learned came from religion. It usually overlaps "good," which is a much simpler concept that would be nice to let it go at. Golden rule, that sort of thing... "as long as you're not actively hurting another, it's all good." It's a great (but very easy) set of morals to live by.
But I think there's more. :) For my kids, for myself, etc. There's righteousness... which is worth aiming for, once "good" is accepted as a basic excellent idea for everyone.
My parents and other family or friend mentors did most of that for me and the rest can be left to intuition or instinct.
Yup, it can. When it is, the results can be astounding! But far more often, I've seen them be dismal.
I find it hard to believe a Creator who is interested in communicating with us directly would put translators or middlemen between He, me and you only so we can disagree about His word and spend all human history killing each other over it while waiting for new signs of impending doom from above.
Me, too. I'm glad I don't see it that way at all! :)
Even though mankind has an apparent motive to "create a Creator", science leaves me convinced that everything began; that there was nothing, then there was something. There must have been an event we can call "the beginning of time".
I totally get the "create a Creator" drive. I certainly feel it. If I had no parents, I'd probably strive to create a role for them as well. That wouldn't make them any less real, though.
I don't know if time began, or if it always was. Doesn't really interest me a lot; it's probably way beyond my comprehension at this stage in my development. I'm sure there'll be a class on it at some point, and if I see a chance to figure it out on my own before then, I'm all over it.
I believe the Big Bang theory is an incomplete explanation for the origin of all things and that the infinite point of mass (singularity) must have come from somewhere.
Could be. It's all pretty theoretical, though there is all kinds of evidence that can be applied to various perspectives.
There had to be nothing, then something.
Maybe, maybe not. Me stating this based on my own learning seems like my 6-year-old stating, "The car had to start driving somewhere." He simply can't conceive past his knowledge and intellect. Neither can I. That's my back-door escape for things I can't explain... I know, I'm a big wimp. :)
The most interesting angle to me is whether or not a God who creates people to act freely would actually know the choices we will make before we make them.
I heard a line about this that helped me find some resolution about it, as well. You think it's tough to wrassle with this idea as an agnostic?... try it as a firmly-believing Mormon. ;)
Anyway, again the line related things to parenting, which is a comparison that I understand 'cause I am one. I can watch my 6-year-old son walk up to a quarter on the table. He doesn't see me, but I can see him contemplate the quarter. I know whether or not he's going to take it. I know him plenty well enough. Sure, he *could* surprise me and pocket the coin and run off furtively... but he won't.
So is the poor kid predetermined to never steal a coin from the kitchen table? Where's his agency? What choice does he retain!? ;)
Yeah, he *could* conceivably steal the coin. But if I were actually God, I'd know that and be unsurprised when he did it. That doesn't invalidate his choice. It just means I know him well enough to be extremely confident of what choices he'll make.
God isn't a pool player; He doesn't control anyone. He sets a stage with bjillions of variables. Yeah, I'm sure he can call out every one of them if needed. But even though he set the stage in motion, it's up to the actors to perform. God provided opposition but He doesn't script it. He rarely takes a hand to nudge things along. Nobody loses and goes to hell, and nobody wins and goes to heaven. The whole point is playing the game, and improving. Making lousy choices leads to what most of us would define as "losing". Making incredible choices leads to what God tells is we'll define as "winning".
Just ramblings... I haven't discussed theology & religion & Mormonisms for years.
-Scott
Well, I've read a lot here tonight that kind of surprised me....but I found I agreed with much. I really like the analogy that Anonymous (or Scott) gave with his son and the quarter. I have lots of input re: all of this, but some has already been well put, and I'm too tired tonight to get really deep!
It seems to me that it's a good way to come together as people who believe in a Creator. Whether we are Christian or not, Mormon or not, etc. We have more in common than we sometimes realize. It's really nice to see the meanness and attacks left out of it in order to just hold a nice, interesting, enlightening discussion.
My one question for everyone at this point is...what role does FAITH play in your belief system? In terms of believing in things that may never be proven in our lifetimes?
Scott, (Thanks for dropping by! Funny how I came to get in touch with you again, aye? Stick around!)
I have to take your first paragraph then go to bed. I will get back at this later.
As for your analogy putting you in the same light as God and your children the same as Mankind, I think it is off base. Mankind grows up and evolves. Your analogy would only hold up if you remained slow and cryptic with your lessons even after you children become 50. I doubt you will. By then you'll treat them more like equals than children incapabale of handling your infinite wisdom. For some reason, God has found it difficult to share one law with his children. Do you tell one of you children to put the seat up yet another to not? Why would God tell some of his children there was no Savior yet others that not only was there a savior but there was also Latter Day seer and revelator?
Why would He tell some of his children they can spend all eternity figuring out how to savor 70 virgins if they'll only kill the infidels yet tell others don't look back lest ye be turned to stone?
Why would God leave any confusion for mankind as it attempts to understand Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Trinity or no trinity?
C U
I'd say faith plays a larger role than most realize. One might argue few things are actually 100%provable. I've heard it put this way, "Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see."
BTW Scott (Remember my roomie who wrote for the statesman? Lived in that apartment with me below old main hill? Nevermind, I'll call you.),
Sounds like you agree that a God who leaves us free to chose cannot be "All Knowing". It's not a statement intended as an insult to God as many who hear this argument tend to believe.
And Hornblower (remember our male USU Cheerleader friend? Played MTG? Was a friend of Richard Hunter? Scott...? Nevermind...I'll call you.)
All Good?
From whence does "Evil" come? Define Evil. It comes from freedom to choose and balance if you ask me. Gotta have a yin if yer gonna have a yang. With out Evil there is no Good.
Dude, Scott get your own blog! LOL. Your punishment for that bout of logorrhea is as follows...I won't read what you wrote. I have ADD, and I came here to peruse Bluto's ruminatings and a few thread postings, and whatever I can osmosize in discrete, 5-minute packets. That was NOT a thread posting. You are trying to usurp Bluto's blog! Instead of reading your post I'm only going to respond to everyone else's characterization of your position. Your straw-man is mine! ~
Bluto,
Maybe instead of looking at it as "Why would God leave confusion?", consider that MEN have CREATED much confusion (and continue to do so). Would God try to find ways to clear things up for us? I happen to think so. There isn't much purpose to life if we have absolutely no direction. And if He were to try to clear some things up for us, would He do it in a really obvious way? He could...but then faith would not be required. In addition, maybe He wants us to work for knowledge and answers. If we really want to know something, we'll take the initiative and seek it out.
When we attend college, we do so of our own volition. We have a goal that we are working towards (college degree). We anticipate a lot of studying, sacrifice, and hard work before we're done. And we don't expect to gain all that knowledge within a day, week, month.
That being said, I also agree with you that God doesn't have everything mapped out for us. Otherwise there would be no point to free agency. I thought Scott gave an excellent example. I do believe that God is all-knowing and that He knows what's going to happen beforehand, even though it's been left up to us to make our own choices and carve out our own futures.
IMO, free agency is the greatest gift we have. It's what this country was founded on...but that's another topic that I don't want to get into right now!
Scott,
There are some real copouts in your logic. Like was there a beginning or not. On one hand you argue the staunch "knowledge" that comes with deep faith in a doctrine yet on another you say "maybe, maybe not" to "in the beginning there was a void without form". Funny that the writers of that book couldn't see beyond Earth being "void and without form". They may have been in mankind's infant stage and had difficulty comprehending the Universal picture I suppose. This actually makes Genesis that much more intriguing to me, really.
As for choice and "all-knowing", your quarter analogy misses the mark. It doesn't have to boil down to how well you know your son's moral make up. Do you know if he will turn left or right? Do you know if he'll fall asleep at 9:00 or 9:01? Do you know if he'll spill that milk today or tomorrow? Since Christianity hammers home the notion that only One was perfect, how does God know when we will demonstrate our imperfections? Your analogy focuses on your son's perfections and your educated observance thereof.
Also,
There is some demonstration here that one doctrine is "True" and the rest are false (default conclusion). The implication is that most of mankind has screwed up by not having "real faith" and an open heart to His Word. I argue that there have been FAR more faithful and diligent children of God on this Earth than even the Mormons. They have died even killed over their beliefs. They continue to do so.
Point is, I do not necessarily find any man's or woman's take on God any more or less valid than the next. The Mormons are unique in that they actually spell that one out. They actually use the words "I know 'the' church is true" as if know other congregation holds such unwavering faith in the truth behind the dogma to which they are introduced in life.
“no” not “know” ...
Freudian slip I guess...
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